COMMISSION TO INQUIRE INTO CHILD ABUSE

HELD AT 145-151 CHURCH STREEET, DUBLIN ON WEDNESDAY, 16TH JUNE 2004

BEFORE MR. JUSTICE SEÁN RYAN CHAIRPERSON OF THE INQUIRY ORDINARY MEMBERS:

DR. IMELDA RYAN, Consultant Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist MR. FRED LOWE, Principal Child Psychologist

I hereby certify the following to be a true and accurate transcript of my shorthand notes in the above hearing.

MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION PRESENT

REGISTRAR TO THE INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE

MR. BRENDAN REIDY

COUNSEL: MR. NOEL McMAHON SC MS. ANNE REILLY BL MS. KAREN FERGUS BL

Instructed by: MS. FEENA ROBINSON

COPYRIGHT: Transcripts are the work of Gwen Malone Stenography Services and they must not be photocopied or reproduced in any manner or supplied or loaned by an appellant to a respondent or to any other party without written permission of Gwen Malone Stenography Services.

1 THE HEARING COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON WEDNESDAY,
2 16TH JUNE 2004
3
4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.
5 The reason we are here this
6 morning is we announced on a previous occasion, first
7 of all, on 7th May, we presented proposals on a
8 position paper and then we gave opportunities to
9 respond to those, and we indicated that we would give
10 our decision on the matter this morning. That is
11 what I propose to do now. After that, I think there
12 are some points that we want to clear up, and
13 Mr. McMahon will deal with those, about future
14 hearings and, in particular, our immediate hearings.
15 I think there are one or two other questions that
16 will arise.
17
18 On 7th May last, I spoke at a public meeting of the
19 Investigation Committee on behalf of the Committee at
20 the Shelbourne Hotel and I introduced a position
21 paper which set out a policy for the Inquiry into
22 Child Abuse. The document discussed the question
23 whether naming individual perpetrators of abuse was a
24 practical or realistic option. It came to
25 conclusions and made recommendations.
26
27 There are no easy options for an inquiry into child
28 abuse whose remit extends from the 1930's for some
29 60 years.
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1 2 The interests and wishes of victims of abuse, even 3 when considered on their own, are sometimes in 4 conflict one with another. In other words, some of 5 the things that people want an inquiry to do may be 6 impossible to reconcile with other desires, even of 7 the same people. When we add extra elements, 8 including fair treatment of people accused of 9 wrongdoing, the equation becomes even harder to

10 balance. 11 12 We in the Investigation Committee tried to find a way 13 forward for the Inquiry into Child Abuse, which did a 14 number of things: 15 16 -Met the legal requirements laid down by the 17 courts. 18 -Promised a proper investigation into what happened 19 and why it happened. 20 -Would not be prolonged to a degree that is unfair, 21 unreasonable and disappointing to everyone 22 involved, as well as to the public. 23 -Was practical, focused and sensitive to 24 participants. 25 26 We tried to look at the point, purpose and value of 27 the Inquiry mandated by the Act of 2000, and whether 28 they were going to be achieved by examining many 29 hundreds of individual cases in a long sequence of

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1 trials. 2 3 Speaking on behalf of the Investigation Committee 4 last month, I explained our thinking. It was clear 5 that we had to come to a decision on naming 6 individuals (other than those who were convicted in 7 court) before we began to inquire into particular 8 institutions. 9

10 We were candidly of the view at that time that the 11 best -- indeed the only realistic -- way forward was 12 by abandoning the quest to name individual 13 perpetrators. Let us not forget that the Act of 2000 14 forbids findings in relation to particular instances 15 of alleged abuse of children. 16 17 The position paper contains a full review of the Act 18 and the issues in relation to naming individuals who 19 have not been convicted of abuse. The question was 20 also considered in my introduction of the document. 21 Senior Counsel, Mr. McMahon, discussed at the same 22 time how the Investigation Committee would proceed 23 with its Inquiry and he detailed the submissions that 24 had been received and the consultations that had 25 taken place. 26 27 Following the meeting of 7th May, a round of 28 consultations took place. First, the parties' 29 lawyers were invited to make submissions and then the

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1 various groups were invited to comment. 2 3 We have proceeded in this way in order to be as 4 inclusive as possible. Of course, we know that we 5 have to make decisions and to conduct the Inquiry in 6 the most effective and valuable way, and we are not 7 expecting everyone to agree with all our decisions. 8 We have a job to do and we cannot avoid the 9 responsibility of deciding difficult questions.

10 We do want people to understand what we are doing and 11 why, and our approach is to be as open and 12 considerate as possible. We are not passing the buck 13 and abrogating our duty to choose between different 14 options. We hope that all the participants in the 15 Inquiry will understand what we are trying to do, 16 even if some of them do not always agree with us. 17 18 I think everybody will agree: 19 20 -That it is time for the investigation to get 21 underway; 22 -That there have been enough, or even too, many 23 reviews, reports and discussions about ways and 24 means. 25 -That all of the participants are getting older and 26 people are understandably impatient, including 27 ourselves, to see the Inquiry progress. 28 29 It is not necessary to re-debate the major issue that

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1 we set out at our meeting last month and in the 2 documents that we published. 3 4 The two essential features of what we proposed are: 5

  1. 6 1. Not to name individual perpetrators of abuse 7 unless they were convicted in the courts.

  2. 8 2. To call witnesses to give evidence of abuse

9 suffered by them to the extent necessary for the 10 Inquiry. 11 12 These questions have been discussed in previous 13 reviews and reports. The actual suggestions will 14 have come as a surprise to nobody. We decided, 15 however, to announce our policy quite specifically so 16 that there would not be any doubt about our 17 intentions and so as to give people an opportunity to 18 coming back with arguments as to why we were wrong. 19 20 There is general acceptance of the issues that we 21 have addressed. While there are differences of 22 emphasis here and there, I think it is fair to say 23 that all of the people who responded to our position 24 paper appreciate what we are trying to do and why we 25 made those particular proposals. There were some 26 misunderstandings which we were happy to clear up and 27 once that had been done, a number of people were in 28 substantial agreement with our scheme. The important 29 point about the responses is this. Some people agreed

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29

1 and others did not. Some were enthusiastic and 2 others were reluctant supporters. Everybody 3 acknowledged the conditions that had to be satisfied, 4 and nobody put forward a rival scheme that could meet 5 the requirements we set out in our documents in which 6 I very briefly summarised at the beginning. The 7 challenge was to see whether some other modus 8 operandi could be devised that would better meet the 9 needs of the situation as agreed all round. None was

proposed. In the result, our decision was

inevitable.

DECISION

We have decided to proceed in accordance with our position paper, that the Inquiry by the Investigation Committee will not seek to name individual abusers. We will also call witnesses to give evidence of abuse suffered by them but only to the extent necessary for the Inquiry. I will say more about this later.

LEGISLATIVE CHANGES/AMENDMENTS

In the review that I carried out before I took up position of Chairperson of the Commission and the Investigation Committee, I made a number of proposals for amendments to the 2000 Act. They were accepted

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1 by the Government. In order to carry into effect the 2 proposals that we have now decided on, some further 3 legislative changes will be needed. We are now 4 finalising those additional requests and they will go 5 to the Government this week for consideration and I 6 hope approval and incorporation into an amending 7 Bill. That, inevitably, is going to take time. I 8 understand that the Parliamentary Council's Office is 9 at present working on the amending legislation, and I

10 do not think that the additional requests we are now 11 making will delay the process in any significant way. 12 13 We made clear previously that we are not going to 14 wait for amending legislation before we get on with 15 the Inquiry. We know that there has been a great 16 deal of delay and it is unnecessary to repeat here 17 what I said before. People have had enough reports, 18 reviews and discussions about the Inquiry and its 19 procedures, and what they want now is for us to get 20 on with the work and to inquire into child abuse in 21 institutions, as we are required to do under the 22 legislation. We must, of course, bear in mind before 23 we get the amendments that we are looking for, that 24 we have to comply with the existing legislation. We 25 will do that by proceeding as we are announcing here, 26 but we do not think it will be possible to produce an 27 interim report before we get the legislation changed. 28 29 The 2000 Act does not compel the Investigation

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1 Committee to identify individuals who have committed 2 abuse, but it does permit such naming. We have said 3 we are not going to do that and are looking for an 4 appropriate amendment of the legislation. It could 5 possibly be argued, as set out in the position paper, 6 that the Investigation Committee could be in error if 7 it decided that it would never ever name an 8 individual. Our position is that we are not going to 9 name individuals except those who have been convicted

10 in courts or have pleaded guilty. 11 12 As to the second part of our decision regarding the 13 number of victim witnesses to be called, assuming 14 that persons who came to the Investigation Committee 15 with a view to giving evidence actually had a right 16 to give such evidence, an amendment is also needed. 17 Again, all this is discussed in other documents that 18 are in the public domain and I do not intend to get 19 into a further discussion here. The point is that we 20 need an amendment before we can proceed to the end 21 point of an investigation that is conducted according 22 to our above proposal. Before we issue a report on 23 an institution which we have investigated according 24 to our proposals, we should have the amendments in 25 place. People should not, therefore, expect an 26 interim report concerning any investigation until 27 such time as the legislation has been amended. 28 29 The changes we are making will enable us, as we have

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1 indicated in our documentation previously published 2 and as I have mentioned, to emphasise the importance 3 of institutional issues and systems failures. In 4 this connection, it has seemed to us important not to 5 ignore the methods by which children came to be 6 placed in institutions. When I spoke previously, I 7 mentioned the role of the courts and the relevance of 8 that question to the matters that we have to 9 investigate. The Committee had previously rejected

10 such an approach because it felt that this matter was 11 not within the Terms of Reference of the Commission. 12 Our continuing investigations have alerted the 13 Investigation Committee to the materiality of this 14 topic. The importance of the issue to some victims 15 is hard to exaggerate. People were heartened by the 16 reference in my speech to this question and were 17 enthusiastic at the prospect that this area would be 18 followed up by the Inquiry. It seems to us that it 19 would be unsatisfactory to ignore this part of the 20 history that we have to explore. In the 21 circumstances, we propose to seek an appropriate 22 amendment to remove any doubt about the relevance of 23 this area to the Inquiry into Child Abuse. 24 25 26 PROCEDURES 27 28 We envisage approaching each institution separately. 29 We will first ascertain what the attitude of the

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1 relevant congregation is to the complaints that have 2 been made. Does it acknowledge the substantial truth 3 of some or most or all complaints? Apart from the 4 complaints, does the congregation/institution know 5 about abuse that happened there? Has it carried out 6 any inquiries of its own? What protocols or systems 7 were in place to prevent child abuse and to detect 8 any abuses which occurred? What training did the 9 teachers/staff have and what training did the

10 managers or supervisors undergo? ...(INTERJECTION)

11 MR. DEMPSEY:
12 THE CHAIRPERSON:
13 MR. DEMPSEY:
14 THE CHAIRPERSON:
15
16 MR. DEMPSEY:
17 THE CHAIRPERSON:
18
19 tolerate it.
20 MR. DEMPSEY:
21
22 THE CHAIRPERSON:
23
24 ...(INTERJECTION).
25 MR. DEMPSEY:
26
27 covering up.
28 THE CHAIRPERSON:
29
12

None. Sorry? There was none. Please be quiet while I am doing this, Robert. There was none. I do not want an interruption and I will not

Are you going to have me locked up again? I never had you locked up before. Please don't

It was the courts that locked us up, now you are

I am going to deliver this and I do not want you

Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd.

1 putting on a show.
2 MR. DEMPSEY: Excuse me?
3 THE CHAIRPERSON: I do not want you putting
4 on a show, please don't do
5 it.
6

7 How were the religious staff recruited and engaged? 8 Who were they and what education did they have? As 9 for the resident children, how do they come to be in

10 the particular institution? Where did the children 11 come from, what were their backgrounds and was there 12 a particular pattern that was characteristic? The 13 education of the children will be inquired into. How 14 were they taught, when and what subjects? Food and 15 accommodation; questions will be asked to ascertain 16 what the institutions says about the conditions of 17 the residences. In listing these questions, I am not 18 trying to be exhaustive. If the managers or 19 congregation want us to do so, we will be happy to 20 indicate the areas of interest, but, obviously, if 21 something turns up which points us in a different 22 direction or an additional area of inquiry, we will 23 pursue that. That, in our view, is the nature of an 24 inquiry. We do not know at the beginning of our 25 journey where we will end up. 26 27 When we have ascertained a lot of the background 28 information about the institution and we know what 29 attitude is being taken to the suggestion of abuse

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1 and what extra information is available about abuse, 2 we will be in a position to decide how many of the 3 complainants we need to call in order to fill out the 4 picture. 5 6 What we have in mind in our approach to the different 7 institutions is as follows: 8 9 -We believe that there is no single mode of

10 investigation appropriate to every institution 11 irrespective of differences in the nature of the 12 abuse alleged or the numbers of residents or the 13 numbers of complainants and respondents and the 14 nature of the complaints and of the responses to 15 the complaints. "One size fits all" does not 16 apply. 17 18 -The way the Inquiry deals with an institution has 19 to be decided principally by reference to what is 20 in dispute. If a respondent institution 21 acknowledges the essential truth of the complaints 22 that are made by its former residents who have 23 made statements to the Investigation Committee, 24 that obviously reduces the need to establish the 25 existence as a fact of abuse in the institution, 26 and it makes it a much easier task to find out the 27 scale of the abuse. It may be that the 28 institution is also in a position to give 29 information of abuse that it is aware of, even

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1 though there may not be a complaint specifically
2 related to that abuse. We have instances where
3 institutions have made known to us information
4 about abuse which was not the subject of any
5 complaint and of which we were completely unaware.
6
7 -Where there is a high level of cooperation as
8 described, so that the fact of abuse is accepted,
9 and the scale is relatively easily established, it
10 is obviously unnecessary to concentrate on hearing
11 a large number of witnesses. How many are heard
12 will depend on what remains in dispute in regard
13 to the abuse after acknowledgments are taken into
14 account and the needs of the Inquiry to get
15 background information as to the detail of the
16 abuse.
17
18 -In a different situation while an institution may
19 say that it is denying one kind of abuse as having
20 been widespread in the institution, it may
21 nevertheless accept that other conduct falling
22 within the definition took place fairly generally.
23 For example, it has been indicated to us that some
24 institutions will accept that violence was a
25 feature of life for the residents, whereas they do
26 not accept that sexual abuse was prevalent. One
27 can anticipate that there may be respondents who
28 will acknowledge that there was little in the way
29 of emotional comfort for residents, but they may

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1 point to conditions in society generally or to the 2 exigencies with which they had to contend, 3 including the numbers of their residents and 4 possibly the limited training and instruction in 5 childcare that were available for their teaching 6 and management staff. 7 8 -I am trying to indicate in these examples the 9 range of issues that is likely to be thrown up in

10 the course of inquiring into the different 11 institutions. We cannot lay down a specific 12 procedure. We have to say to people that the way 13 we approach the institution depends on the issues 14 appropriate to that situation. We intend to call 15 as witnesses a sufficient number of complainants 16 to deal with the issues relevant to the particular 17 institution. Once we have satisfied ourselves by 18 considering the necessary quantum of evidence, 19 there will, I expect, remain a body of 20 complainants (and indeed individual respondents) 21 who have not been called to give evidence. 22 23 -As to witnesses who do not give evidence in the 24 formal hearings before the Investigation 25 Committee, we do not, of course, intend to ignore 26 them. The first option that they will have is to 27 transfer to the Confidential Committee. This is 28 not a second class compartment, but is an entirely 29 separate option that is available to any

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1 participant in the work of the Commission. A
2 large number of victims of abuse have chosen to
3 take this course. People who have expressed
4 willingness to come to the Investigation Committee
5 have the right under the Act to change their minds
6 and move to the Confidential Committee. In
7 mentioning here that this option is available, I
8 am particularly anxious not to give the impression
9 that it is a consolation prize for somebody who
10 has not "made the cut" for the Investigation
11 Committee.
12
13 -Again, depending on the attitude adopted by the
14 respondent institution, it may be possible to hear
15 the evidence of remaining Investigation Committee
16 complainants in a non-adversarial setting and
17 based on accepting their previous written
18 statements as evidence. This would greatly
19 accelerate the hearing process and would afford
20 the witnesses an opportunity to be heard in a
21 formal setting by the Committee of their original
22 choice.
23
24 -Further options exist by way of participation in
25 peacemaking or reconciliation processes which we
26 hope to facilitate between willing participants
27 and also possibly the inclusion of statements of
28 victims of abuse, when suitably redacted, in a
29 book of remembrance. I will say a little more

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1 about the peacemaking process in a moment. 2 3 We will also engage in the inquiries detailed in our 4 meeting of 7th May, which were described by 5 Mr. McMahon, Senior Counsel, in his statement that 6 day. 7 8 We are happy to discuss with the Complainants and 9 Respondents how best to conduct the Inquiry into the

10 particular institution. The decision ultimately must 11 be one for the Investigation Committee as to how to 12 carry out the Inquiry, but in broad terms that is 13 what we intend. The legal requirements are clear as 14 to what protections exist where there is potential 15 for making adverse findings against people. So there 16 is no need for controversy about the law that is 17 applicable. Problems arise in this area because of 18 disputes about applying the law to the particular 19 circumstances. In other countries, it is done by 20 agreement between the parties, and there is no reason 21 why that cannot happen here if people want to do so. 22 We will consider objections or problems that are made 23 known to us by parties whether they are victims or 24 institutions or anybody else. We want to carry out 25 the best investigation possible in accordance with 26 the legal rules. There need be no dispute about 27 that, so any issues that are thrown up should be 28 capable of being dealt with by agreement. In default 29 of agreement, again the duty of the Committee is to

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1 make up its mind, and that it will do. 2 3 4 APPROACHES TO THE INQUIRY 5 6 This is an inquiry into child abuse in institutions. 7 It is not a series of cases that we are bringing 8 against individual persons or, indeed, particular 9 congregations. We are not laying charges against,

10 for example, the Sisters of Mercy or the Christian 11 Brothers. It is true that complainants have 12 furnished written statements to us outlining what 13 they say is abuse they suffered at the hands of 14 people who were working in institutions in which they 15 were residents. We do not take those complaints and 16 then marshall them as a bill of indictment against 17 institutions or people. The complaints are 18 documentary materials which are of assistance to us 19 in the course of our inquiry. 20 21 We have made clear in the course of informal meetings 22 with the interests groups involved in the work of the 23 Investigation Committee that we are approach our work 24 in a spirit of inquiry. If we take a particular 25 institution, say an industrial school, we will begin 26 by asking the management and supervisors of the 27 congregation what they know about abuse in the 28 institution in the relevant period. We expect that 29 we will get information about this issue in the

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1 documentary materials that are provided to us under 2 discovery orders. It is the very essence of an 3 Inquiry to start by asking questions. The approach 4 to the question in this way is more open and 5 inquisitive, I suggest, than one concentrated on 6 specific allegations made by complainants and the 7 answers to those complaints. Complaints and 8 responses are relevant to the Inquiry, but we think 9 we should start off by asking what the institution

10 knows about abuse of children in its care in the 11 various ways that the term "abuse" is defined in the 12 legislation. We will explore that knowledge. The 13 attitudes of the institutions to the complaints which 14 have been made known to them is very important, but 15 it would be wrong to think that this is entirely or 16 even principally a complaint driven investigation. 17 18 We hope that the respondent congregations and 19 institutions will feel able to cooperate as fully as 20 possible with the work of the Investigation 21 Committee. In fairness, it has to be acknowledged 22 that a number of religious congregations have taken a 23 position of spectacular Christian concern for the 24 victims of abuse and for finding out the truth. 25 26 Our Inquiry is not a process to see whether the 27 Committee can come up with evidence which establishes 28 that abuse took place in a particular institution, in 29 the teeth of opposition from that institution which

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1 denies everything and which says that every single 2 allegation made by the complainants is wrong. We 3 want to up-end that process, and I hope that 4 congregations will accept that they have 5 responsibilities to the victims of abuse and to those 6 who complain, even if some of them are thought to be 7 in the wrong, and to the community as a whole and 8 also to the congregations themselves and their own 9 members. No devout religious can feel comfortable

10 putting victims of abuse through further trauma and 11 distress if that can be avoided. 12 13 There is a fear among some of those who are 14 cooperating fully with the Inquiry in ascertaining 15 the extent of abuse in their institutions, that other 16 congregations who resist what we are trying to do 17 will fare better in the final result of the Inquiry 18 process. In other words, the fear is that there will 19 be condemnation of the cooperating congregations, 20 while those who oppose and resist the Inquiry will 21 escape any sanction or even a finding that abuse took 22 place in their institutions. I wish that we could 23 dismiss such a fear as being unfounded. 24 25 One very obvious example of real cooperation is when 26 an institution tells the Investigation Committee 27 about abuse which is not the subject of any 28 particular complaint from an individual resident. 29

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1 I hope now that we have announced our decision about 2 individuals, it will mean that congregations which 3 were uneasy previously are able to review their 4 attitudes to the Inquiry. 5 6 7 WHAT WE CANNOT ACHIEVE 8 9 Our Inquiry can achieve a great deal and within a

10 reasonable time. There are advantages for all the 11 participants in having these investigations brought 12 to a timely conclusion. Again, these are matters 13 that have been discussed at great deal and we don't 14 need to spend much more time considering them here. 15 I set out previously some skeleton of a vision of 16 what we could achieve and I think everybody involved 17 in this Inquiry knows what the possibilities are. 18 There is, however, something that no Inquiry can 19 achieve and which is often described by victims of 20 abuse as being highly desirable and even necessary. 21 That is reconciliation. 22 23 No matter how searching is our inquiry into each 24 institution and no matter how just and measured our 25 conclusions, there will remain as elusive as at the 26 start of our investigation the issue of 27 reconciliation between victims of abuse and the 28 congregations of which the abusers were members. No 29 process of inquiry can of itself deliver that

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1 outcome. It is true that there is a degree of 2 closure and vindication achieved by way of formal 3 inquiry, but it would be a mistake to ignore the 4 potentially enormous benefits to be got from 5 reconciliation. This, in essence, is a process which 6 is engaged in by participants in the issue of abuse 7 often with the assistance of a facilitator. It is 8 unnecessary to set out a precise scheme and it is 9 probably undesirable to do so because one of the

10 features of any scheme of reconciliation is that the 11 participants have an input into how it should be 12 managed and operated. Assuming in regard to a 13 particular institution that the victims or a 14 substantial number of them wished to engage in a 15 process of reconciliation and so were the 16 congregation involved, we, as the Investigation 17 Committee, would be happy to look to see how we could 18 facilitate that process. I think one would have to 19 have victims involved and also the relevant 20 congregation, but the State would also have an 21 involvement because of its position as a stakeholder 22 in the process of the investigation and as a body 23 whose conduct is also under investigation. This is 24 not simply a listening centre or an advice process or 25 a counselling system, which is not to diminish the 26 value of those institutions, but it is rather an 27 exploration by all the participants or most of them. 28 (I am leaving out for consideration actual abusers 29 but that does not necessarily have to happen) and

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1 they are all equal participants. There is, in other 2 words, no person in charge of the process, although 3 the facilitator will, of course, play an important 4 role in steering the discussions but he/she is not a 5 participant and does not purport to be a person in 6 charge, because there is no person in charge. The 7 point about this process is that it can yield up 8 achievements that are limited only by the imagination 9 and the capacities of the people who are

10 participating. 11 12 At one level it is possible even that an institution 13 could cooperate with its former residents and with 14 the State personnel who were assigned, and with the 15 facilitator and anybody else with a relevant position 16 as stakeholder in the process, so as to produce an 17 acknowledgment of the amount of abuse and a 18 description of the nature of that abuse and an 19 investigation of the causes of the abuse and what 20 facilitated it and made it possible, and what 21 happened so as to prevent it being discovered and 22 ended. The process could, if appropriate, end in an 23 apology and expressions of understanding all round. 24 There are circumstances in which a process of this 25 kind could achieve far more than a formal 26 investigation could ever do. This is not a situation 27 where participants have to pick either an inquiry or 28 a reconciliation or peacemaking process. There is no 29 reason why the paths of reconciliation and

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1 peacemaking cannot be followed as far as possible, 2 and where that is not possible, the issue can go back 3 to the Investigation Committee. If it turns out that 4 nothing can be achieved in a substantial way by the 5 peacemaking process, then the Investigation Committee 6 remains committed and available to proceed in the 7 formal way that I am describing. 8 9 What I am saying here in a word is that if people are

10 interested in investigating the potential of 11 peacemaking and reconciliation, we, as the 12 Investigation Committee, will be very happy to 13 encourage that and to provide as much in the way of 14 facilities as we can. The minimum requirement is 15 that the victims in substantial numbers in respect of 16 a particular institution are interested in this kind 17 of reconciliation and that there is agreement by the 18 congregation involved to pursue the same path. 19 20 I think we can safely assume that the State will wish 21 to promote and participant to the extent necessary in 22 the process. If we have such agreement, then we, as 23 the Committee, will be very happy to explore 24 possibilities with the people involved. It may not 25 be possible to achieve the minimum level of agreement 26 necessary and if that happens, so be it. It is also 27 the case that such agreement may be possible in 28 respect of some institutions and their former 29 residents but not others. Again, that does not pose

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1 a problem. If at the end it transpires that it is 2 simply not possible to achieve a degree of 3 substantial reconciliation, I still do not think that 4 anything has been lost and the pursuit of the 5 prospect or possibility is of itself of some value. 6 7 Thank you very much. 8 9 MR. McMAHON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10 I propose saying just a 11 very short few words in relation to a number of 12 general enquiries or a number of issues which have 13 arisen in the course of enquiries which the legal 14 team have received specifically in relation to the 15 hearings, which are due to commence on 21st June. 16 17 Firstly, in relation to the format of those hearings 18 and the order in which it is intended to call 19 witnesses. The format of the hearing was set out in 20 a little bit of detail in the fifth section, I think, 21 of the address which I delivered in the Shelbourne 22 Hotel on 7th June. The order in which it is intended 23 or proposed calling witnesses at those hearings will 24 follow the following sequence. 25 26 First of all, it is intended to call witnesses who 27 will give a historical background to child abuse and 28 its emergence as an issue in society in Ireland. 29

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1 Secondly, it is proposed to move on and to hear 2 evidence from representatives of various Government 3 Departments. The State involvement, in other words. 4 5 Thirdly, it is intended to proceed to hear 6 representatives from various religious congregations. 7 8 Fourthly, it is intended to hear speakers nominated 9 by various victims and survivor groups.

10 11 That is the order in which it is hoped this part of 12 the Inquiry will follow. I must say in relation to 13 this, we have received a lot of interest and there 14 has been a lot of interest expressed in relation to 15 this part of the Inquiry. A considerable number of 16 statements have been received from those wishing to 17 participate. The legal team of the Investigation 18 Committee is currently assessing those with a view to 19 trying to schedule the attendance of witnesses of 20 which it is hoped adequate notice will be given. 21 22 This brings me to the second point, and that is the 23 time frame within which it is envisaged these 24 hearings will proceed. It is anticipated that the 25 historical evidence will take place over a number of 26 days at the beginning of the hearings. The hearings 27 will begin on 21st June, and it is likely that that 28 evidence will continue into 22nd and possibly indeed 29 into 23rd. It is hoped that the Committee will be in

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1 a position to begin hearings from Governmental 2 representatives on, perhaps, 23rd June and for the 3 following days. 4 5 We will be giving dates or allocating dates and times 6 for such witnesses as their sequence is determined. 7 It is not possible to give those dates at this point 8 in time with greater precision than that, except to 9 say that parties will, insofar as is possible, be

10 facilitated. 11 12 It is anticipated that hearings of evidence from 13 representatives of the religious congregations are 14 unlikely to commence prior to 28th June, that is the 15 beginning of the second week of these hearings. It 16 is likely that that part of the Inquiry will continue 17 for certainly a week, it may go beyond a week. The 18 sequence which is currently envisaged is that people 19 speaking on behalf of survivor groups or victims 20 groups will then be allocated dates to begin their 21 evidence. 22 23 We are mindful of the fact that institution specific 24 hearings have been scheduled to commence on 7th July, 25 and a mechanism is currently being designed which 26 will ensure that the emergence hearings are permitted 27 to conclude to their natural conclusion. 28 29 As I say, it is intended that dates will be given to

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1 assist those, so that those who wish to give evidence 2 at these hearings will be facilitated, insofar as it 3 is necessary to accommodate their needs, insofar as 4 it is possible, that will be done. 5 6 Another matter that has arisen has been the question 7 of the availability of a transcript or a note of the 8 evidence which will be given. First of all, it is 9 necessary to point out that, of course, these

10 hearings will be in public. Furthermore, a 11 transcript of the evidence given during these 12 hearings will be kept. The intention is that the 13 transcript will be available on the Commission's 14 website and the Commission is currently looking at 15 the technical requirements that will facilitate that 16 being done. It is hoped that making the transcript 17 available will provide access to those who wish to 18 follow the proceedings, that it will provide access 19 to the proceedings for those with, for example, 20 hearing disabilities. It is hoped that providing 21 such a facility will obviate the need for parties to 22 be actually present at these hearings other than 23 those parts in which they are directly involved. 24 25 These were the principal queries which have arisen in 26 relation to the actual conducting of the emergence 27 hearings, and we have tried to deal with them as best 28 we can. It is hoped that if other specific 29 difficulties emerge, they can be dealt with as they

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1 arise.
2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much,
3 Mr. McMahon.
4 MR. O'MOORE: Chairman, there is only one
5 matter that I want to raise

6 and we put the Solicitor to the Committee on notice 7 of this yesterday. I appear for the State witnesses 8 next week and we are trying to organise witnesses 9 from five or six Government Departments to give

10 evidence next week. From what Mr. McMahon has said, 11 it is clear that they will not be giving evidence on 12 Monday or Tuesday, so I think it is safe for me to 13 tell them that they can stand down until, say, 14 Wednesday morning of next week, Chairman.

15 THE CHAIRPERSON: That seems reasonable,
16 Mr. McMahon, does it not?
17 MR. McMAHON: That is absolutely fine.
18 MR. O'MOORE: Thank you very much, Sir.
19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good, that concludes
20 our proceedings this

21 morning. Our next meeting, Mr. McMahon, I think is 22 on Friday, is that right? 23 MR. McMAHON: On Friday, 18th June, next 24 Friday, when it is hoped to 25 deal with certain procedural matters arising out of 26 the proposed hearings for 7th July when, as announced 27 on 7th June, it was intended to commence 28 institutional hearings into St. Joseph's Industrial 29 School, Ferryhouse.

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is Ferryhouse in
2 Clonmel run by the
3 Rosminian institution.
4 MR. McMAHON: That's correct.
5 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think that our
6 proceedings then will not

7 be long. They are simply to clear out of the way any 8 issues that are necessary or that the institution 9 wants to raise. Mr. McMahon, have you an idea as to

10 who should be represented there or is that something 11 we are in contact with people about? 12 MR. McMAHON: Primarily it is thought 13 that the representatives of 14 the Rosminian Institute will be present for those 15 hearings. We have not specifically been asked in 16 relation to other parties in relation to whether they 17 should be represented or not. Again, it is a hearing 18 which will be in public and it is planned that it 19 will be held here at 10:30 in the morning on Friday. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good, thank you very 21 much indeed. 22 MR. O'MOORE: Sorry, Chairman, could I 23 just say something before 24 there is a further intervention. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will come back to you in 26 a moment. 27 MR. O'MOORE: On the issue you were 28 discussing with 29 Mr. McMahon, the State interest will certainly be

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1 represented on Friday to see what involvement they 2 will have in the substantive hearings in relation to 3 Ferryhouse. I just want to make that quite clear. 4 Thank you, Chairman. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: What I would expect is that 6 we would be inquiring from 7 the representatives of the respondent institution 8 questions of the general nature such as we have 9 indicated here and see what the response is. In

10 other words, the idea will be to try to get a shape 11 on the nature of the Inquiry. As I said, we have 12 indicated that our attitude to each institution -- we 13 will not necessarily follow precisely the same 14 pattern, we will see how much can we find out about 15 what is in dispute, and then we will proceed 16 accordingly to adjust our procedures. 17 MR. McMAHON: Indeed, if I may add to 18 that, some greater detail 19 was given in relation to the hearing proposed for 20 18th June, some information was given on 7th June in 21 the body of the speech which I delivered. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is available on the 23 website. 24 MR. McMAHON: It is, indeed. 25 MR. DEMPSEY: I didn't understand, what 26 do you mean by "discrete 27 cases", can you elaborate on that for me? 28 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, where is the 29 reference to "discrete"?

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1 MR. DEMPSEY: It's in your letter. You 2 were suggesting that you 3 would deal with hearings from St. Joseph's School, 4 that you would be dealing with "discrete cases", that 5 is your wording. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I am just 7 trying to put it into 8 context. This is in our letter that went out to 9 everybody, is that right?

10 MR. DEMPSEY: Yes. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Asking people whether they 12 were going to come back to 13 us. Somebody better give me the letter. If there is 14 any difficulty about this, we will be perfectly happy 15 to write to you. 16 MR. DEMPSEY: You did write to me but you 17 didn't answer me. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I can answer it, I will 19 answer it now. Equally, if 20 I cannot answer it, I will tell you I cannot answer

21 it, is that okay? 22 MR. DEMPSEY: 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: 24 25 MR. DEMPSEY: 26 27 understand. 28 THE CHAIRPERSON: 29

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You used the word. I am going to have to ask you ...(INTERJECTION). You are sending me a letter, Sir, that I don't

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1 have the letter in front of me because I didn't know 2 you were going to raise this question. I am quite 3 happy to answer your letter. If you have it with 4 you, I will ask you to wait behind.

5 MR. DEMPSEY: I don't, no.
6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, hold on a second,
7 let's be reasonable here
8 ...(INTERJECTION).
9 MR. DEMPSEY: I am being reasonable. I
10 asked you a question, a
11 question you gave to us in your letter.
12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Can you just give me
13 an opportunity of coming
14 back to you on that in a moment?
15 MR. DEMPSEY: Does the word "discrete"
16 mean cherry picking?
17 Please tell me that yes or no?
18 THE CHAIRPERSON: It means separate. Sorry,
19 it depends
20 ...(INTERJECTION).
21 MR. DEMPSEY: Does it mean cherry
22 picking, Sir, yes or no?
23 THE CHAIRPERSON: It means separate. I take
24 it it is D-I-S-C-R-E-T-E,
25 it means separate. Separate is what the word means.
26 MR. DEMPSEY: Does the word "cherry
27 picking" mean anything to
28 you, Sir, at the moment in your mind?
29
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1 FROM THE FLOOR: This is a bully tactic
2 approach, it is not
3 acceptable here.
4 MR. DEMPSEY: Absolutely. You cannot
5 explain what the word

6 "discrete" in your mind, in your own wording to me in 7 your letter. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: The word means separate. 9 MR. DEMPSEY: Separate what?

10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Discrete means separate. 11 MR. DEMPSEY: Mr. McMahon, I can't see 12 the Judge, your head keeps 13 popping left and right of me. I also asked you in a 14 fax, which I am sure Mr. McMahon there has in his 15 folder, I asked you if individuals who are going 16 before the High Court want to have their hearing full 17 and final in the court, do they or can they have 18 their hearing heard by the Investigation thereafter? 19 You didn't respond. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McMahon gave you 21 ...(INTERJECTION). 22 MR. DEMPSEY: You asked us for 23 suggestions. We gave you 24 our suggestions, but you ask to talk to us outside in 25 private. I don't want it in private, I want it in

26 public. Yes or no?
27 THE CHAIRPERSON:
28 MR. DEMPSEY:
29
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You have a solicitor? I have been told that for five years, I have a

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1 solicitor.
2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. You have a
3 solicitor?
4 MR. DEMPSEY: Who does not respond.
5 THE CHAIRPERSON: The last meeting we had
6 ...(INTERJECTION).
7 MR. DEMPSEY: I have got people coming up
8 to me telling me
9 ...(INTERJECTION).
10 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can shout all you like,
11 but we are getting nowhere.
12 MR. DEMPSEY: I think it is clear that
13 people are getting this on

14 the back of the doors. What I am getting here is 15 people telling me this, that if I settle, if I 16 settle, if I arrange to meet up with the people that 17 I have "alleged", as you people call it, that it can 18 be done so without the inclusion of my solicitor. 19 This is coming from the State solicitors.

20 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am not getting into a
21 hearing just at this moment
22 ...(INTERJECTION).
23 MR. DEMPSEY: No, you are not, of course.
24 We are not getting anywhere
25 for five years.
26 THE CHAIRPERSON: You know why.
27 MR. DEMPSEY: But you are coming up
28 and cherry picking

"discrete" words, no wonder we are not moving on. 36

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am just going to say
2 something to the meeting
3 here.
4 MR. DEMPSEY: We are not moving on,
5 you're covering up.
6 THE CHAIRPERSON: I cannot get into a
7 situation where I am having

a battle with somebody...(INTERJECTION)

9 MR. DEMPSEY: I am having a battle for
10 27 years.
11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who has a big complaint. I
12 am trying to be as
13 sympathetic as possible.
14 MR. DEMPSEY: You're not.
15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Equally, I am not going to
16 be bullied, I am not going

17 to be roared at, I am not going to be beaten down. I 18 am going to conduct this ...(INTERJECTION). 19 MR. DEMPSEY: We know all about being 20 beaten down. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am going to chair this 22 Inquiry as best I can. 23 Whether you like it or not, we have decisions to 24 make. I am not looking for a popularity contest, I 25 am not asking for everybody to agree with us. As I 26 said, we are going to make those decisions. On a 27 previous occasion you raised a question, I asked you 28 to wait back. Mr. McMahon spent a long time 29 explaining things to you.

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1 MR. DEMPSEY: And he also explained how
2 cheap he wants to run this
3 Commission. He was more concerned about how much
4 this whole issue of investigation was costing rather
5 than giving an answer.
6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe this is one of the
7 disadvantages of trying to
8 be as available and accommodating as possible.
9 FROM THE FLOOR: I have a few questions,
10 please.
11 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will take a question from
12 you, but can I just say
13 this. I do not want to conduct a right riotous or
14 raucous public meeting. I want to conduct this with
15 dignity and appropriateness. I do not want to have
16 ...(INTERJECTION).
17 MR. DEMPSEY: Sorry, Sir, you also
18 suggested that the
19 religious were not taking an adversarial route, of
20 course they are.
21 THE CHAIRPERSON: I did not say that.
22 MR. DEMPSEY: Yes, you did.
23 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you read it again, you
24 will see I did not.
25 MR. DEMPSEY: You just said it in your
26 statement.
27 THE CHAIRPERSON: I did not say it.
28 MR. DEMPSEY: They are taking a very
29 adversarial route about

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1 this, the very legalistic. They are denying they 2 were in the schools. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is a gentleman in the 4 middle ..... 5 Mr. Kelly, stop a second. Just a minute now. We are 6 not going to end up here as a farce. 7 MR. KELLY: No, I agree with you. What 8 I am saying is maybe you 9 should answer people by letter, because you can't

10 answer like that. I think it is inappropriate and we 11 don't expect you to answer in that way. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 13 However, there is a 14 gentleman in the middle who has patiently and 15 politely waited and who has sat down when anybody 16 else has spoken, and I am going to take his question 17 and if I can deal with it, I will deal with it, and 18 after that we will respond by letter. Thank you very 19 much for your suggestion, Mr. Kelly. I will take 20 Mr. Hanahoe after that. 21 MR. WATERS: Thank you, Chairman. The 22 question is in two parts. 23 The first part is if you are going to use the 24 scenario where there is no naming and shaming of the 25 people who committed abuses in the institutes, surely 26 we are going to land up with one major problem at the 27 end of the day, because if I for one had a brother or 28 a sister that worked in an institute and that 29 institute was blamed for the sexual abuse and all the

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1 sorts of abuse that has been dished out during the 2 times that these cases were in operation, I would 3 certainly be taking that challenge into any court 4 that I could to defend the name of my brother and 5 sister or any of my family, because they would be 6 blamed and because if you do not identify the people 7 that have committed these abuses, these atrocities, 8 you are going to paint everyone with the same brush, 9 and people are not just going to sit down and take

10 that. Whatever is discussed here today, whatever 11 decisions that your Committee and your good self are 12 taking will only land up with one almighty challenge 13 at the end of the day, and all our talk and 14 everything that has been tried to put into operation 15 will totally come to a full stop by the law itself.

16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
17 MR. WATERS: On the second point
18 ...(INTERJECTION).
19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can I say that is not a
20 question, it is a
21 submission.
22 MR. WATERS: On the second point, Judge,
23 we have four very dark

24 periods in the Irish history ...(INTERJECTION). 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry to interrupt you 26 now. 27 MR. WATERS: Judge, this is what is out 28 there. We have a dark 29 period ...(INTERJECTION).

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please, do not make a
2 speech.
3 MR. WATERS: It is not a speech.
4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please, do not make a
5 speech.
6 MR. WATERS: It is not a speech, there
7 are four points I want to
8 make to you.
9 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I am not going
10 to listen to four points.

11 If you want to ask us questions, write down your 12 questions, send them ....(INTERJECTION) 13 MR. WATERS: There is no point, because 14 you don't answer them. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to answer 16 them this way, sorry. I 17 have one final thing which I will take from 18 Mr. Hanahoe, who has wanted to make a point or ask a 19 question. 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29

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1 MR. HANAHOE: Chairman, good morning. 2 As the Committee knows, I 3 represent a good few of the victims. After or during 4 the initial process where, as I gather, and this is 5 to clear it up in my own mind as much as anything, 6 you will be calling witnesses from the Government 7 Departments and various religious institutions. Is 8 there in the process a method of cross-examining 9 those people or are they just replying to your

10 inquiry? 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, 12 Mr. Hanahoe. Good morning, 13 Mr. Clarke. Mr. Clarke is Senior Counsel also to the 14 Investigation Committee. Do you want to respond to 15 Mr. Hanahoe's point? 16 MR. CLARKE: Yes, I think the position 17 that was outlined in the 18 past, but I fully understand that it may not have 19 been made exactly clear, was that it was not 20 generally intended at this stage that there would be 21 cross-examination of any one. The purpose of this 22 phase of the hearing is to enable the Commission to 23 get as full a picture as possible as to what the 24 position of the various groups against whom 25 accusations might be made is. Clearly if anything is 26 said that might be relevant to findings that the 27 Commission might make in the fullness of time in 28 relation to a particular institution -- I know, for 29 example, Mr. Hanahoe represents a number of persons

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1 who make allegations arising out of Artane, so there 2 will clearly have to be a substantive phase of this 3 Inquiry into the events of Artane. What is said next 4 week by the Christian Brothers will be, I suppose, 5 taken as an indication of where they stand, but 6 insofar as they may make exculpatory statements, they 7 will be matters that will be fully inquired into in 8 the Artane phase, when there will be appropriate 9 opportunities to cross-examine any witnesses on the

10 facts. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: In other words, it is 12 simply to find out, first 13 of all, how did the issue of child abuse emerge as a 14 major issue in Ireland, how did that emerge? Then 15 what do people have to say about what their knowledge 16 is of how it emerged. As I understand, and also from 17 Mr. McMahon, the evidence will be available on the 18 website and if there is a question of dispute about 19 that, that will be revisited at a subsequent stage, 20 as I understand it. 21 MR. CLARKE: Could I say one further 22 thing, Chairman. I think 23 it was indicated in the past that if something 24 emerged unexpectedly that really did require further 25 questioning, the Commission or the Investigation 26 Committee would be prepared to consider having the 27 witness back at some subsequent stage to be 28 cross-examined. 29 THE CHAIRPERSON: Presumably the witness

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1 would need to be told as to

the topics that were likely to be covered.
MR. CLARKE: Precisely. So it is not
4 ruled out, but I think it
is not envisaged that there would initially be any
cross-examination. If some compelling reason for
someone being cross-examined now, rather than when
that institution came up, emerges, then it can be
considered. 10
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2 Mr. Hanahoe. Can I just
clarify this and maybe simplify it and put
everybody's mind at rest by saying we intend to
explore those questions, but in a completely
non-controversial and non-confrontational way.
Whatever somebody wants to say, they can say. If
they do not want to answer a question, the worst that
will happen to them, as I understand, is that they
might be asked, 'why do you not want to answer the
question'? We will proceed in that way and see how
we get on. That is the first issue, and I am not
going to take any more, Mr. Hanahoe. 14
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...(INTERJECTION).
THE CHAIRPERSON: That is what is going to
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1 MR. HANAHOE: Chairman, just to be of 2 assistance, there is a 3 sister Tribunal, as we all know, going on and there 4 is an unsatisfactory situation where for right or 5 wrong, and I am not making a judgment on that at the 6 moment, written submissions are being made without 7 representatives being available to be cross-examined 8 relative to the documents that are produced. Some of 9 those documents are in total denial of anything ever

10 happening, so they are totally unrealistic to that 11 extent. That is why I am coming back to my point 12 here and perhaps we might have another meeting or 13 submission, but what I am saying is I am just 14 wondering, even initially or laterally, will the 15 personnel who are going to give such evidence be 16 available to some form of cross-examination as to the 17 veracity of what they are saying? 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: It depends on what evidence 19 they are giving, as I 20 understand it, Mr. Hanahoe. If somebody is giving 21 evidence as to what motivated, let's say, a 22 Government Department to take a particular policy 23 decision, then I would not anticipate any 24 cross-examination on that issue. That is simply 25 background information and will not be the subject of 26 a disputed finding of a resolution of a dispute by us 27 at the end of the day. If somebody is representing a 28 congregation, let's say, that is a respondent, that 29 person might well turn up at a subsequent stage

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1 specific to that congregation. In the first 2 instance, the intention is simply to say, if that is 3 appropriate, 'why did you apologise' or, 'what is 4 your role in this', 'how did you discover it'? I do 5 not anticipate that. If my understanding is correct, 6 that is the position. If that changes, if fairness 7 dictates that somebody's interest is suddenly 8 imperiled, then obviously the rules will dictate that 9 that be revisited. Assuming that no particular

10 person's interest is being impugned or reputation 11 adversely affected in any way, then we would 12 anticipate that this would proceed seamlessly, simply 13 by asking a series of simple questions. 14 MR. HANAHOE: There is a lot of 15 confusion and I have to 16 explain a lot of things, as you have to explain a lot 17 of things. The situation, as perceived by the 18 ordinary man in the street, is that we have 19 overwhelming, in some instances, apologies on the one 20 hand and yet some of us know there are total legal 21 denials on the other hand. We are somewhere in the 22 middle of all this, and I welcome and wish the 23 Inquiry every success. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is one of the things 25 we want to do. 26 MR. HANAHOE: I also would like to be 27 able to satisfy the people 28 that I represent that they are going to have a 29 reasonable input into the whole thing.

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1 MR. HANAHOE: I accept that, I take it 2 that we will be able to 3 come back in a legal sense to talk legal matters. 4 5 The second question is as far as the victims who have 6 indicated that they do want to come before the 7 Investigation Committee are concerned, where do their 8 legal representatives stand in that instance? I know 9 you have taken a decision to write directly to these

10 people, which is your entitlement, but let me say 11 that on the ground there is still huge confusion 12 about the Commission, the RIRB and the Four Courts 13 amongst the victims themselves. I say this by way of 14 being helpful, but I would like to know what the 15 position is or what is envisaged, because it not 16 clear in my mind if these people want to give 17 evidence before the Investigation Committee, if they 18 want to confront their opposition -- let's use any 19 word you like -- what is the situation in that 20 instance? 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Hanahoe, you will 22 understand that what I said 23 on the previous occasion, on 7th May, is available in 24 full on our website. The discussion document that we 25 produced is available and we have now given a 26 decision of some length. I am not going to try to 27 summarise that, if you don't mind my taking that 28 position. If I do, I may get something wrong and I 29 may have to come back and correct it. We have

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1 committed ourselves to a very specific posture on 2 that. If there is some particular thing, may I 3 suggest that you might discuss it with Counsel or 4 even write to us. I think myself we have set out our 5 position pretty clearly, but it does depend on the 6 attitude of each particular institution. There is no 7 simple absolute answer to that. We have tried to 8 give it as fully as we can. If we can clarify it, 9 maybe I can suggest that you contact Counsel.

10 11 I am sorry, I am going to adhere to the policy that 12 was suggested by Mr. Kelly, I think it was, a good 13 deal earlier and I think it made a good deal of 14 sense. I am not going take any more questions, I am 15 sorry to disappoint people. Otherwise I will get 16 into a general debate. Like I said to Mr. Hanahoe, 17 if we have not made it clear in our documents, I am 18 scarcely going to make it clear here. If we have not 19 made it clear, then I am more likely to get into 20 trouble by saying something now that I should not. I 21 think we have made our position pretty clear. If 22 people have further difficulties, I think they should 23 go to their own solicitors, to be honest. If they 24 still have problems, they can write to us and we will 25 respond formally in letter form. 26 MR. O'CONNOR: There is one question, I 27 will not be controversial, 28 but some people have made controversial comments. I 29 will not be controversial, I can assure you, and I

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1 will not name names on this occasion. My name is 2 Rory O'Connor, I am a former De La Salle Brother. I 3 sent you a submission naming names, which I will not 4 name here, but they are names of people who made 5 allegations of murder and mass murder against the 6 Christian Brothers, and they are also making 7 allegations of child abuse. Now, you are saying you 8 will choose who to speak to, who to ask questions, 9 but I would like to know are you going to speak to

10 these people who have accused the Christian Brothers 11 of murder, because those allegations certainly 12 reflect on their credibility in relation to child 13 abuse? 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can I stop you there for a 15 second. I am not going to 16 conduct the Inquiry here at a meeting to deal with 17 procedures. I am sorry, I am not going to take any 18 more, I am not going to respond. I understand that 19 people have concerns and people have points. We are 20 going to rise now, we have made our position as clear 21 as we can. I am not going to take any more 22 interventions from the floor. I understand that 23 people have strong feelings, of course they have, and 24 people have queries. I am going to close the meeting 25 now and we will resume on Friday for the specific 26 purpose, and let me emphasise, the specific purpose 27 and only the specific purpose of dealing with issues 28 relating to our upcoming Ferryhouse hearings. Thank 29 you very much indeed.

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END OF HEARING
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
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29
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'

'how - 46:4 'what - 46:3 'why - 46:3, 47:10

1

1 - 7:6

10:30 - 31:19 145-151 - 1:6 16th - 1:7, 3:2 18th - 30:23, 32:20 1930's - 3:28

2

2 - 7:8

2000 - 4:27, 5:13,

8:29, 9:29 2004 - 1:7, 3:2 21st - 26:15, 27:27 22nd - 27:28 23rd - 27:29, 28:2 27 - 37:10 28th - 28:14

6

60 - 3:29

7

7th - 3:7, 3:18, 5:27, 18:4, 26:22, 28:24, 30:26, 30:27, 32:20,

49:23

A

abandoning - 5:12 able - 20:19, 22:3,

46:27, 49:2 abrogating - 6:13 absolute - 50:7 Absolutely- 35:4 absolutely - 30:17 abuse - 3:23, 3:28,

4:2, 5:15, 5:19, 7:6, 7:8, 8:19, 9:20, 10:2, 12:5, 12:7, 13:29, 14:1, 14:12, 14:25, 14:27, 14:29, 15:2, 15:4, 15:8, 15:13, 15:16, 15:19, 15:26, 17:2, 17:28, 19:6, 19:13, 19:27, 20:10, 20:11, 20:24, 20:28, 21:5, 21:10, 21:15, 21:21, 21:27, 22:20, 22:27, 23:6, 24:17, 24:18, 24:19, 26:27, 39:29, 40:1, 43:13, 51:7, 51:13

Abuse - 1:3, 3:22, 4:13, 11:23 abusers - 8:18, 22:28, 23:28 abuses - 12:8,

39:25, 40:7 accelerate - 17:19 accept - 15:21, 15:24, 15:26, 21:4,

49:1 acceptable - 35:3 acceptance - 7:20 accepted - 8:29,

15:8 accepting - 17:17

access - 29:17, amendments -25:6, 29:13, 29:17,

29:18 8:29, 9:23, 10:24 32:22, 38:8, 43:17, accommodate -amount - 24:17 45:7, 45:16, 49:23,

29:3 Anne - 2:12 49:25 accommodating -announce - 7:15 avoid - 6:8

38:8 announced - 3:6, avoided - 21:11 accommodation -22:1, 30:26 aware - 14:29

13:15 announcing - 9:25 accordance - 8:16, answer - 33:17,

B

18:25 33:18, 33:19, 33:20, according - 10:21, 34:3, 38:5, 39:9, background -

10:23 39:10, 39:11, 41:14, 13:27, 15:15, 26:27, accordingly - 32:16 41:15, 47:8, 47:10, 45:25 account - 15:14 50:7 backgrounds -accurate - 1:29 answers - 20:7 13:11 accusations - 42:25 anticipate - 15:27, balance - 4:10 accused - 4:8, 45:23, 46:5, 46:12 based - 17:17

51:10 anticipated - 27:24, battle - 37:8, 37:9 Achieve - 22:7 28:12 bear - 9:22 achieve - 22:9, anxious - 17:8 beaten - 37:17,

22:16, 22:19, 24:25, Apart - 12:3 37:20 25:25, 26:2 apologies - 46:19 becomes - 4:9 achieved - 4:28, apologise' - 46:3 began - 5:7 23:2, 25:4 apology - 24:23 begin - 19:25, achievements -appear - 30:7 27:27, 28:1, 28:20

24:8 appellant - 2:31 beginning - 8:6, acknowledge -applicable - 18:17 13:24, 27:26, 28:15 12:2, 15:28 apply - 14:16 behalf - 3:19, 5:3, acknowledged -applying - 18:18 28:19

8:3, 20:21 appreciate - 7:24 behind - 34:4 acknowledges -approach - 6:11, benefits - 23:4

14:21 11:10, 14:6, 16:13, best - 5:11, 18:9, acknowledgment -19:23, 20:3, 35:2 18:25, 29:27, 37:22

24:17 Approaches - 19:4 better - 8:8, 21:17, acknowledgmentsapproaching -33:13

-15:1311:28 between - 6:13, Act - 4:27, 5:13, appropriate - 10:4, 17:26, 18:20, 22:27

5:17, 8:29, 9:29, 17:5 11:21, 14:10, 16:14, beyond - 28:17 actual - 7:13, 23:28, 24:22, 43:8, 46:3 big - 37:11

29:26 appropriateness -bill - 19:16 add - 4:7, 32:17 38:15 Bill - 9:7 additional - 9:4, approval - 9:6 bit - 26:20

9:10, 13:22 area - 11:17, 11:23, Bl - 2:12, 2:13 address - 26:21 13:22, 18:17 blamed - 39:29, addressed - 7:21 areas - 13:20 40:6 adequate - 27:20 argued - 10:5 body - 16:19, 23:22, adhere - 50:11 arguments - 7:18 32:21 adjust - 32:16 arise - 3:16, 18:17, book - 17:29 Adolescent - 1:18 30:1 Brendan - 2:7 adopted - 17:13 arisen - 26:13, 29:6, briefly - 8:6 advantages - 22:10 29:25 bringing - 19:7 adversarial - 17:16, arising - 30:25, 43:1 brings - 27:22

38:19, 38:29 arrange - 36:16 broad - 18:12 adverse - 18:15 Artane - 43:1, 43:3, brother - 39:27, adversely - 46:11 43:8 40:4 advice - 23:24 ascertain - 11:29, Brother - 51:2 affected - 46:11 13:15 Brothers - 19:11, afford - 17:19 ascertained - 13:27 43:4, 51:6, 51:10 agree - 6:7, 6:16, ascertaining -brought - 22:11

6:18, 37:25, 39:7 21:14 brush - 40:8 agreed - 7:29, 8:9 assessing - 27:18 buck - 6:12 agreement - 7:28, assigned - 24:14 bullied - 37:16 18:20, 18:28, 18:29, assist - 29:1 bully - 35:1 25:17, 25:22, 25:25, assistance - 19:18,

25:27 23:7, 45:2

C

alerted - 11:12 assume - 25:20 allegation - 21:2 assuming - 10:13 candidly - 5:10 allegations - 20:6, Assuming - 23:12, Cannot - 22:7

43:1, 51:5, 51:7, 46:9 cannot - 6:8, 16:11,

51:11 assure - 50:29 18:21, 25:1, 33:20, alleged - 5:15, atrocities - 40:7 35:4, 37:6

14:12, 36:17 attendance - 27:19 capable - 18:28 allocated - 28:20 attitude - 11:29, capacities - 24:9 allocating - 28:5 13:29, 17:13, 32:12, care - 20:10 almighty - 40:12 50:6 carried - 8:26, 12:5 amended - 10:27 attitudes - 20:13, carry - 9:1, 18:12, amending - 9:6, 22:4 18:24

9:9, 9:14 availability - 29:7 case - 25:27 amendment - 10:4, available - 14:1, cases - 4:29, 19:7, 10:16, 10:20, 11:22 16:5, 16:29, 17:7, 32:27, 33:4, 40:2

1

Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd.

causes - 24:19

centre - 23:24

certain - 30:25

certainly - 28:17, 31:29, 40:3, 51:11

certify - 1:28

chair - 37:21

Chairman - 26:9, 30:4, 30:14, 31:22, 32:4, 39:21, 42:1, 43:22, 45:1

Chairperson - 1:14, 3:4, 8:27, 12:12, 12:14, 12:17, 12:22, 12:28, 13:3, 30:2, 30:15, 30:19, 31:1, 31:5, 31:20, 31:25, 32:5, 32:22, 32:28, 33:6, 33:11, 33:18, 33:23, 33:28, 34:6, 34:12, 34:18, 34:23, 35:8, 35:10, 35:20, 35:27, 36:2, 36:5, 36:10, 36:20, 36:26, 37:1, 37:6, 37:11, 37:15, 37:21, 38:6, 38:11, 38:21, 38:23, 38:27, 39:3, 39:12, 40:16, 40:19, 40:25, 41:1, 41:4, 41:9, 41:15, 42:11, 43:11, 43:29, 45:18, 46:24, 47:1, 48:3, 49:21,

51:14 challenge - 8:7, 40:3, 40:12

change - 17:5

changed - 9:27

changes - 9:3,

10:29, 46:6

Changes/amendments - 8:24

characteristic -

13:12 charge - 24:2, 24:6 charges - 19:9 cheap - 38:2 cherry - 34:16,

34:21, 34:26, 36:28 Child - 1:3, 1:18, 1:19, 3:22, 4:13,

11:23

child - 3:27, 9:20, 12:7, 19:6, 26:27, 43:13, 51:7, 51:12

childcare - 16:5

children - 5:15, 11:5, 13:9, 13:10, 13:13, 20:10

choice - 17:22 choose - 6:13, 51:8 chosen - 17:2 Christian - 19:10,

20:23, 43:4, 51:6,

51:10 Church - 1:6 circumstances -

11:21, 18:19, 24:24

clarify - 47:3, 50:8

Clarke - 42:13, 42:16, 43:21, 44:3

class - 16:28

clear - 3:12, 5:4,

7:26, 9:13, 18:13, 19:21, 30:11, 31:7, 32:3, 36:12, 42:5, 42:19, 49:16, 50:17, 50:18, 50:19, 50:21,

51:20 Clearly - 42:25

clearly - 43:2, 50:5 Clonmel - 31:2 close - 51:24 closure - 23:2 comfort - 15:29 comfortable - 21:9 coming - 7:18,

34:13, 36:7, 36:19, 36:27, 45:11 commence - 26:15,

28:14, 28:24, 30:27 Commenced - 3:1 comment - 6:1 comments - 50:28 Commission - 1:3,

2:2, 8:27, 11:11, 17:1, 29:14, 38:3, 42:22, 42:27, 43:25, 49:12

Commission's -

29:13

committed - 10:1, 25:6, 39:25, 40:7,

50:1

Committee - 2:5, 3:19, 4:12, 5:3, 5:22, 8:18, 8:28, 10:1, 10:6, 10:14, 11:9, 11:13, 14:23, 16:25, 16:27, 17:4, 17:6, 17:11, 17:15, 17:21, 18:11, 18:29, 19:23, 20:21, 20:27, 21:26, 23:17, 25:3, 25:5, 25:12, 25:23, 27:18, 27:29, 30:6, 40:11, 42:2, 42:14, 43:26, 49:7,

49:17 community - 21:7 compartment -

16:28 compel - 9:29 compelling - 44:6 complain - 21:6 complainants -

14:3, 14:13, 16:15, 16:20, 17:16, 19:11, 20:6, 21:2

Complainants -

18:8

complaint - 15:1, 15:5, 20:16, 21:28,

37:11

complaints - 12:1, 12:3, 12:4, 14:14, 14:15, 14:21, 19:15, 19:17, 20:7, 20:13

Complaints - 20:7 completely - 15:5,

47:5 comply - 9:24 concentrate - 15:10 concentrated - 20:5 concern - 20:23 concerned - 38:3,

49:7 concerning - 10:26 concerns - 51:19 conclude - 28:27 concludes - 30:19 conclusion - 22:12,

28:27 conclusions - 3:25,

22:25 condemnation -

21:19 conditions - 8:3, 13:16, 16:1

conduct - 6:5, 15:21, 18:9, 23:23, 37:18, 38:13, 38:14,

51:16 covered - 44:2 describing - 25:7 conducted - 10:21 covering - 12:27, description - 24:18 conducting - 29:26 37:5 designed - 28:25 Confidential -credibility - 51:12 desirable - 22:20

16:27, 17:6 cross - 42:8, 42:21, desires - 4:6 conflict - 4:4 43:9, 43:28, 44:6, detail - 15:15, confront - 49:18 44:7, 45:7, 45:16, 26:20, 32:18 confrontational -45:24 detailed - 5:23, 18:3

47:6 cross-examination detect - 12:7 confusion - 46:15, - 42:21, 44:6, 45:16, determined - 28:6

49:11 45:24 devised - 8:8

congregation -cross-examine -devout - 21:9 12:1, 13:19, 19:27, 43:9 dictate - 46:8 23:16, 23:20, 25:18, cross-examined -dictates - 46:7 45:28, 46:1 43:28, 44:7, 45:7 differences - 7:21,

congregation/cross-examining -14:11 institution - 12:4 42:8 different - 6:13,

congregations -cut - 17:10 13:21, 14:6, 15:18, 19:9, 20:18, 20:22, 16:10 21:4, 21:8, 21:16, D difficult - 6:9 21:19, 22:2, 22:28, difficulties - 29:29, 27:6, 28:13 dark - 40:23, 40:28 50:22

connection - 11:4 dates - 28:5, 28:7, difficulty - 33:14 consider - 18:22, 28:20, 28:29 dignity - 38:15

43:26 days - 27:26, 28:3 diminish - 23:25 considerable -De - 51:2 direction - 13:22

27:15 deal - 3:13, 9:16, directly - 29:23, considerate - 6:12 16:16, 22:9, 22:13, 49:9 consideration - 9:5, 29:27, 30:25, 33:3, disabilities - 29:20

23:28 39:17, 50:13, 51:16 disadvantages -considered - 4:3, dealing - 33:4, 38:7 5:20, 44:9 51:27 disappoint - 50:15 considering -deals - 14:18 disappointing -

16:18, 22:14 dealt - 18:28, 29:29 4:21 consolation - 17:9 debate - 6:29, 50:16 discover - 46:4 Consultant - 1:18 decide - 14:2 discovered - 24:21 consultations -decided - 7:14, discovery - 20:2

5:24, 5:28 8:16, 9:2, 10:7, 14:19 discrete - 32:26, contact - 31:11, deciding - 6:9 32:29, 33:4, 34:15,

50:9 Decision - 8:14 35:6, 36:29 contains - 5:17 decision - 3:10, 5:5, Discrete - 34:24, contend - 16:2 8:10, 10:12, 18:10, 35:10 contest - 37:24 22:1, 45:23, 49:9, discuss - 18:8, 50:3 context - 33:8 49:26 discussed - 3:22, continue - 27:28, decisions - 6:5, 6:7, 5:21, 7:12, 10:17,

28:16 37:23, 37:26, 40:11 22:13, 40:10 continuing - 11:12 default - 18:28 discussing - 31:28 controversial -defend - 40:4 discussion - 10:19,

47:6, 50:27, 50:28, defined - 20:11 49:24

50:29 definition - 15:22 discussions - 6:23, controversy - 18:16 degree - 4:20, 23:1, 9:18, 24:4 convicted - 5:6, 26:2 dished - 40:1

5:19, 7:7, 10:9 delay - 9:11, 9:16 dismiss - 21:23 cooperate - 20:19, deliver - 12:28, dispute - 14:20,

24:13 22:29 15:12, 18:26, 32:15, cooperating -delivered - 26:21, 43:18, 45:26

21:14, 21:19 32:21 disputed - 45:26 cooperation - 15:7, Dempsey - 12:11, disputes - 18:18

21:25 12:13, 12:16, 12:20, distress - 21:11 Copyright - 2:28 12:25, 13:2, 32:25, document - 3:22, correct - 31:4, 46:5, 33:1, 33:10, 33:16, 5:20, 49:24

49:29 33:22, 33:25, 34:5, documentary -costing - 38:4 34:9, 34:15, 34:21, 19:18, 20:1 Council's - 9:8 34:26, 35:4, 35:9, documentation -Counsel - 2:11, 35:11, 35:22, 35:28, 11:1

5:21, 18:5, 42:13, 36:4, 36:7, 36:12, documents - 7:2,

50:3, 50:9 36:23, 36:27, 37:4, 8:5, 10:17, 45:8, 45:9, counselling - 23:25 37:9, 37:14, 37:19, 50:17 countries - 18:19 38:1, 38:17, 38:22, domain - 10:18 course - 6:4, 9:22, 38:25, 38:28 done - 7:27, 18:19, 16:10, 16:25, 17:3, denial - 45:9 29:4, 29:16, 36:18 19:19, 19:21, 24:3, denials - 46:21 doors - 36:14 26:13, 29:9, 36:23, denies - 21:1 doubt - 7:16, 11:22 38:20, 51:23 denying - 15:19, down - 4:16, 16:11,

Court - 35:16 39:1 30:13, 37:17, 37:20, court - 5:7, 35:17, Department - 45:22 39:15, 40:9, 41:11

40:3 Departments - 27:3, Dr - 1:18 courts - 4:17, 7:7, 30:9, 42:7 driven - 20:16

10:10, 11:7, 12:25 described - 15:8, Dublin - 1:6 Courts - 49:12 18:4, 22:19 due - 26:15

2

Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd.

during - 29:11, 40:1, 42:3 duty - 6:13, 18:29

E

easier - 14:26

easily - 15:9

easy - 3:27

education - 13:8,

13:13 effect - 9:1 effective - 6:6 either - 24:27 elaborate - 32:27 elements - 4:7 elusive - 22:25 emerge - 29:29,

43:13, 43:14 emerged - 43:16,

43:24 emergence - 26:28,

28:26, 29:26 emerges - 44:8 emotional - 15:29 emphasis - 7:22 emphasise - 11:2,

51:26 enable - 10:29,

42:22 encourage - 25:13 end - 10:20, 13:25,

21:3, 24:22, 26:1, 39:6, 39:27, 40:13,

45:27 End - 52:1 ended - 24:22 engage - 18:3,

23:14 engaged - 13:7,

23:6 enormous - 23:4 enquiries - 26:12,

26:13 ensure - 28:26 enthusiastic - 8:1,

11:17 entirely - 16:28,

20:15 entitlement - 49:10 envisage - 11:28 envisaged - 27:23,

28:18, 44:5, 49:15 equal - 24:1 Equally - 33:19,

37:15 equation - 4:9 error - 10:6 escape - 21:21 essence - 20:2,

23:5 essential - 7:4,

14:21 establish - 14:24 established - 15:9 establishes - 20:27 events - 43:3 evidence - 7:8,

8:19, 10:15, 10:16, 16:18, 16:21, 16:23, 17:15, 17:18, 20:27, 27:2, 27:25, 27:28, 28:12, 28:21, 29:1, 29:8, 29:11, 30:10, 30:11, 43:17, 45:15, 45:18, 45:21, 49:17

exactly - 42:19 exaggerate - 11:15 examination -

42:21, 44:6, 45:16,

45:24 findings - 5:14, examine - 43:9 18:15, 42:26 examined - 43:28, fine - 30:17

44:7, 45:7 First- 5:28, 26:26, examining - 4:28, 29:8

ground - 49:11 important - 7:28, 11:28, 13:10, 13:28, groups - 6:1, 19:22, 11:4, 20:14, 24:3 14:10, 14:18, 14:20, 27:9, 28:19, 28:20, impossible - 4:6 14:25, 14:28, 15:18, 42:24 impression - 17:8 15:20, 16:13, 16:17, guilty - 10:10 impugned - 46:10 17:14, 18:10, 19:25,

42:8 first - 3:6, 11:29, inappropriate -19:28, 20:9, 20:28, example - 15:23, 16:26, 39:23, 43:12, 39:10 20:29, 21:26, 22:24,

H

19:10, 21:25, 29:19, 46:1, 47:12 including - 4:8, 23:13, 24:12, 25:16,

42:29 Firstly- 26:17 examples - 16:8 fits - 14:15 except - 10:9, 28:8 five - 30:9, 35:29, exculpatory - 43:6 36:25 Excuse - 13:2 Floor- 35:1, 38:9 exhaustive - 13:18 floor - 51:22 exigencies - 16:2 focused - 4:23 exist - 17:24, 18:14 folder - 35:15 existence - 14:25 follow - 26:24, existing - 9:24 27:12, 29:18, 32:13 expect - 10:25, followed - 11:18, 16:19, 19:28, 32:5, 25:1

Hanahoe - 39:20, 6:26, 16:3 28:23, 31:3, 31:8, 41:18, 42:1, 42:12, inclusion - 17:27, 32:7, 32:12, 42:28, 42:29, 45:1, 45:20, 36:18 44:8, 50:6 46:14, 46:26, 47:2, inclusive - 6:4 institutional - 11:3, 47:13, 48:1, 49:1, incorporation - 9:6 30:28 49:21, 50:16 Indeed - 32:17 institutions - 5:8, Hanahoe's - 42:15 indeed - 5:11, 9:21, 11:6, 13:16, hand - 46:20, 46:21 16:20, 19:8, 27:28, 14:7, 15:3, 15:24, hands - 19:13 31:21, 32:24, 51:29 16:11, 18:24, 19:6, happy - 7:26, 13:19, indicate - 13:20, 19:14, 19:17, 20:13, 18:8, 23:17, 25:12, 16:8 20:19, 21:15, 21:22, 25:23, 33:14, 34:3 indicated - 3:9, 23:26, 25:28, 42:7

39:11 Following- 5:27 expecting - 6:7 following - 1:28, explain - 33:28, 26:24, 28:3

35:5, 46:16 Follows- 3:1 explained - 5:4, follows - 14:7

hard - 11:15 11:1, 15:23, 32:9, Instructed - 2:16 harder - 4:9 32:12, 43:23, 49:6 instruction - 16:4 he/she - 24:4 indication - 43:5 intend - 10:18, head - 35:12 indictment - 19:16 16:14, 16:25, 18:13, hear - 17:14, 27:1, individual - 3:23, 47:4

38:1 Food- 13:14 explaining - 37:29 forbids - 5:14 exploration - 23:27 forget - 5:13 explore - 11:20, form - 45:16, 50:25

20:12, 25:23, 47:5 formal - 16:24, expressed - 17:3, 17:21, 23:2, 24:25,

27:5, 27:8 4:29, 5:12, 7:6, 8:18, intended - 26:18, heard - 15:11, 10:8, 16:20, 19:8, 26:22, 26:26, 27:5,

17:20, 35:18 21:28 27:8, 28:29, 30:27, Hearing - 3:1, 52:1 individuals - 5:6, 42:20 hearing - 1:30, 5:18, 10:1, 10:9, 22:2, intention - 29:12,

15:10, 17:19, 26:19, 35:15 46:2

27:14 25:7 expressions - 24:23 formally - 50:25 extends - 3:28 format - 26:17, extent - 7:9, 8:20, 26:19

21:15, 25:21, 45:11 former - 14:22, extra - 4:7, 14:1 24:13, 25:28, 51:2 forward - 4:13, 5:11, 8:4 four - 40:23, 41:7, facilitate - 17:26, 41:10 23:18, 29:15 Four- 49:12 facilitated - 24:20, Fourthly- 27:8 28:10, 29:2 frame - 27:23 facilitator - 23:7, Fred- 1:19

24:3, 24:15 Friday- 30:22, facilities - 25:14 30:23, 30:24, 31:19, facility - 29:21 32:1, 51:25 fact - 14:25, 15:8, front - 34:1 29:20, 31:17, 32:19, Industrial - 30:28 intentions - 7:17 35:16, 35:18, 36:21, industrial - 19:25 interest - 13:20, 42:22 inevitable - 8:11 27:13, 27:14, 31:29,

hearings - 3:14, inevitably - 9:7 46:7, 46:10 16:24, 26:15, 26:17, informal - 19:21 interested - 25:10, 26:23, 27:24, 27:26, information - 13:28, 25:16 28:1, 28:12, 28:15, 14:1, 14:29, 15:3, interests - 4:2, 28:24, 28:26, 29:2, 15:15, 19:29, 32:20, 19:22 29:10, 29:12, 29:22, 45:25 interim - 9:27, 10:26 29:27, 30:26, 30:28, initial - 42:4 Interjection - 12:10, 31:15, 32:2, 33:3, input - 23:11, 46:29 12:24, 33:24, 34:8,

51:28 inquire - 5:7, 9:20 34:20, 35:21, 36:6, heartened - 11:15 Inquire - 1:3 36:9, 36:22, 37:18, Held - 1:6 inquired - 13:13, 38:16, 40:18, 40:24, held - 31:19 43:7 40:29, 41:12, 48:2 helpful - 49:14 inquiries - 12:6, interrupt - 40:25 hereby - 1:28 18:3 interruption - 12:18 high - 15:7 inquiring - 16:10, intervention - 31:24

28:23 full - 5:17, 35:16, High - 35:16 facts - 43:10 40:15, 42:23, 49:24 highly - 22:20 failures - 11:3 fullness - 42:27 historical - 26:27, fair - 4:8, 7:22 fully - 20:19, 21:14, 27:25 fairly - 15:22 42:18, 43:7, 50:8 history - 11:20, fairness - 20:21, furnished - 19:12 40:24

32:6 interventions -Inquiry - 1:14, 3:21, 51:22 4:13, 4:27, 5:23, 6:5, introduced - 3:20 6:15, 6:27, 7:10, 8:17, introduction - 5:20 8:21, 9:15, 9:18, investigate - 11:9 11:18, 11:23, 14:18, investigated - 10:23

46:6 Furthermore- 29:10 falling - 15:21 future - 3:13 family - 40:5 far - 24:25, 25:1, hold - 34:6 15:14, 18:9, 18:12, investigating -honest - 50:23 19:4, 20:3, 20:8, 25:10 hope - 6:14, 9:6, 20:26, 21:14, 21:17, Investigation - 2:5, 17:26, 20:18, 21:3, 21:20, 22:4, 22:9, 3:19, 4:12, 5:3, 5:22,

49:5 G 22:1 22:17, 22:18, 27:12, 8:17, 8:28, 9:29, 10:6, farce - 39:6 gather - 42:4 hoped - 27:11, 27:15, 28:16, 32:11, 10:14, 11:13, 14:23, fare - 21:17 general - 7:20, 27:20, 27:29, 29:16, 37:22, 43:3, 46:23, 16:24, 17:4, 17:10, fax - 35:14 26:12, 32:8, 50:16 29:20, 29:28, 30:24 51:16 17:15, 18:11, 19:23, fear - 21:13, 21:18, generally - 15:22, Hotel - 3:20, 26:22 inquiry - 3:27, 4:5, 20:20, 21:26, 23:16,

21:23 16:1, 42:20 feature - 15:25 gentleman - 39:3, features - 7:4, 23: